Introduction

Well, it turns out people really like conversations. So, in this week’s episode, I’m talking with Dr. Jessica Kapp, a Geoscience professor here at the University of Arizona. And we talk about everything from camping in Tibet to getting rained on at the Grand Canyon to starting your own podcast.

So, without further ado, here’s episode 26 with Dr. Jessica Kapp.

Content

(Please note that due to the length of this episode and the sheer amount of work it takes to do a proper transcription, what you’ll find below is an automated transcription without attribution. I’m hoping to clean it up and add attribution but something is better than nothing, right? —RS)

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That’s the clicker thing. Yeah.


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Because I was trying to figure out when I first was doing I

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Would

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Mess up and I’m like, I need to go back there, sure, as you hear you hear some back. That’s where they like, oh, we need to edit that and post

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And then they don’t they don’t

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Need to

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Yep. And then just look at the waveforms. There you go, really blown out right. That’s an audio to visual

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Yeah. Amazing. The teaching yourself auditioners there is the fun part. Yeah, yeah. So we’re, we’re back here at herbal

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audios podcast base and video space in videos. I love the space. I love it too. I’m I so want to use the green screen.

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I want to use it. But I don’t have

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I have no idea what I would use it for. I just want to use it. I totally do as a geologist, I can picture all the places that would be behind me and I could just put my hand up point at something like the top of Mount Everest, we’re like, we’re in a cave. Right, exactly.

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Like magic.

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So yeah, so we’re back here on with that. Oh, y’all space and this week I am speaking with Jessica cap. Hello. No. So as per my usual

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I will let you introduce yourself a little bit. Oh my gosh, I don’t have a Bible for ya feel so much pressure within this this part because like what do you save it doesn’t sound super arrogant but also doesn’t sound like really boring, it’s okay to sounds

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So I will just say that I am a Professor of Practice here on campus and the geoscientist apartment.

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So I teach a lot of geoscience classes primarily to non science majors. That’s my bread and butter. So my teacher giant

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General education course for non science majors about the earth, which is really fun because I love talking about the earth. That’s cool.

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And then I also am the Director of Undergraduate Studies in our department. So I work a lot with our team on figuring out how to make the undergrad experience the best it can be. So we talk about curriculum and class offerings and who’s going to teach what you know all those great things.

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And then I’m also a writer so I try to write at times I have a book that I’ve written and we’ll talk about that later. But, um, and a mom and a wife and all those great things. So a lot going on stone wall.

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And it was actually we first met, and it was neither one of us really realize it until we got in the studio today.

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That we met in the Faculty Fellows program because your fellow. That’s right. Yeah, your fellow at South Campus. That’s right. And I am a Faculty Fellow with the transfer student center.

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And we have a lot of transfer students in geosciences, it turns out, so it’s kind of a nice connection. And that reminds me. We need to talk after the pod. Sure.

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Because there’s some stuff that we want to do and connect with the Transfer Center share some events and absolutely

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You know, we have to get people from we have to like figure out buses and stuff because people are like human Douglas Well don’t despair. We just took three different centers plus geologists from Pima community college to the Grand Canyon this past weekend.

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As part of the Faculty Fellows program. So we had about 40 people all track up to the Grand Canyon on Friday afternoon and we kept for two nights.

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And some of us hiked into the canyon and some explored the RAM. It was awesome. Last time I was there at ORD oh that’s not awesome. We will right we were literally halfway between like stopping points like you could get find shelter, which I literally

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ran to the gift shop. Yeah, I think, was North Rim. Oh, you run the Northland being yeah yeah yeah but we were just sometime you were just call this guy so pretty. And then, oh wait

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just opened up. Yeah, that’s not fun. That’s trying, but otherwise it’s an amazing place. If you go in the weather’s perfect like it was this past weekend. Oh my goodness. It’s life changing. It was I’d never felt so small. Yeah.

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Didn’t request. I don’t know why I thought there would be, but didn’t realize there’s no like guardrails oh places, there aren’t I know and you could just

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Like there’s the Grand Canyon right in front of me, like, yeah, both

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Feet and it happens every year accidentally people go over the edge. You know, leaning for their baseball hat gets blown out with the wind and may reach for it and they fall

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There’s I’ll take a selfie. Yeah, there’s a book and in the gift shop that’s called Death and the Grand Canyon and it’s all the stories of all the different ways people have died in the Grand Canyon.

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And a lot of them are those types of stories are really sad and others, you know, are more extreme that river rafting and things that happen that are a little more extreme but

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Unfortunately, I think the majority of people who died there. It’s not a helicopter or raft. It slipped off the edge. Yeah, that was just shocked me when I saw. Yeah, it’s like this seems like it would be

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Not illegal but like maybe some sort of policy or something and I just felt weird, but it is a little weird. Let me and you can go out and hike anywhere you like in this world. And there’s actually a guardrail. So this is your level, you know, we don’t need training. Yes. Right.

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Speaking of the Grand Canyon geosciences I was, I was hoping you could talk a little bit about your background because I, I realized that

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We have a term like I do a lot with instructional design and things like, then we have a term that is often sometimes it’s a compliment, sometimes not, but

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This accidental designer sure where people will, you know, go into one field they realized they really like designing the things that the people in the field us

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And they they go that direction, so they become an accidental designer and you see that within instructional designers, sometimes, but

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I realized that that was kind of how we both got to where we are now, you, you were telling me about your background, my beloved accidental scientists. That’s right. Yeah.

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Yeah, so I you know grew up with a very creative father. He was a musician and an entertainer, my whole life. That’s what I wanted for myself with something creative. I

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Wrote from a young age, you know, I wanted to act and dad’s a dancer, all those things. My parents were not at all into science or outdoorsy stuff. They weren’t hikers, you know, none of that.

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But when my father passed away when I was 19 which, you know, was very traumatic for me. So we were very close, I found myself.

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A week later back at college. My sophomore year. So, you know, went from funeral to school within a week and just really sort of confused and lost and

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Kind of unsatisfied with my life. And where was I going, everything just seemed very confusing at that point and I happened to take

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A class very much like what I teach here at the University, which was this sort of forced upon me, you know, have to take science. What are you going to take. So I chose geology.

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And it was in that class that I really started to discover that there were things out there.

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That I just could not even believe that people could make their living scrambling around in the Grand Canyon, or on the sides of Mount Everest. And I thought, Wow, this is

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This is cool. You know, I wonder if I can do something like this. It was scary because I had, you know, really lapsed, and my math. I hadn’t taken at science courses. I was super behind. I was a sophomore.

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But I remember going into the office of the department chair in the geology department at Syracuse University who are remember to this day because she was amazing.

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And saying to her, hey, you know, I’m really into this class, but I have no math or science background at all. And I’m kind of scared of it, but can I be a geologist, you think, and

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She was just like, do you want to and absolutely you know you can. This is what you need to do. So I did. I just jumped in. I started taking calculus and physics and chemistry and all those things.

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scared out of my wits, but it was the best decision I ever made because they’re open every door every door to my, you know, the tap into me senses, because I decided to be a scientist was awesome.

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Those, those doors that opened up when when

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Because I have a similar experience, but my Father also died. Yeah, sophomore year of college and I was one week away from finals and I asked him some music theory final I remember

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I was taking the time. Yeah, which I was already kind of share. I mean, I played instruments in school, but I was not a musical person, per se. Yeah. And so I do the same kind of thing I

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I was still doing my general courses at that time I didn’t take a different path. At that point, I didn’t get a little bit later. Yeah, but there’s yeah

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That is that can really throw you for a loop at that stage. Yeah. And at that time, I don’t think I really fully appreciated. How much his death was doing something in my brain that where I was feeling dissatisfied.

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I’m not sure I would have told you at that time I got to do something different, you know, I still, I had a plan. I was going to be a journalist and a writer and

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You know, that was sort of where I was going. And I was happy with that. It wasn’t that I was dissatisfied necessarily with thought of being a writer. It was just that I was so i think so profoundly last as a human.

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That it was, it was like it was right for the picking for something to change, you know, and that just happened to be the thing that caught my attention and for the first time, I really was feeling

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Challenged and curious in a way that I hadn’t felt in a long time because my classes would come. We’re coming. Easy to me.

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You know English classes and things they were I had been always been a good writer, and I enjoyed writing. So none of that felt

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I wasn’t uncomfortable in any way. It was just sort of going along. And this was the first time I felt like, wow.

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This is really cool. And I want to know more. And it’s really difficult to learn more. And that’s kind of okay you know that that being in between sort of comfort and discomfort was

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Would felt okay at that moment. And it’s something that I still think to this day is really important.

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For people to find themselves in a position where they’re a little uncomfortable, but in a good way. You know, I want to know more about that, but I don’t quite understand. That’s not a comfortable place to be necessarily

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But it pushes you somewhere really amazing because you’re going to get there. You know, you’re going to find a way to figure that out to learn that

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And that was something that came from science, you know, just that curiosity was there was sparked and it was such a great feeling.

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So you you obviously had a very creative bent. Yeah. And I feel like it’s a false dichotomy. Maybe the either be artistic

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Or you can be scientific. Yeah. And then there’s a creative underpinning to both. Yeah. You know, so how how did your and this actually connects to something we’re going to talk about in a bit. Yeah, podcast. The yeah yeah yeah are going to be starting soon.

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But how I mean how did you feel like, because obviously you were going down a very creative road initially. How did you feel

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Your scientific turn kind of scratched that creative. Yeah. How do you, how do you get there. There’s. Well, I’ll be honest with you.

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I sort of had to let go of the creative part of me for a long time because I had to commit so fully to the just the pure science because I didn’t know what I was doing.

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I was really behind you know other people who had started a science majors.

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And so all the sudden you know my GPS dropping and things are difficult and I’m so I’m really was putting all my time in to the pursuit of learning the basics of science and the basics of how to do research how to ask scientific questions.

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Not realizing that that in itself is very creative.

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When you’re looking at the world around you and coming up with what is the next question I want to ask and how am I going to get there. That’s, that’s creative, you have to think about multiple things and put them together, sort of piece them together.

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What I’ve realized since then is that, especially in geology. It is such a creative science in the sense that you’re visualizing things that happened two or three or 4 billion years ago.

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Because of these little pieces of information right that were teasing out of rocks or you know what we map or different things.

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And then we’re sort of trying to within that construct of science, create a narrative that it’s true that makes sense that fits all of those physical constraints.

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But tells a story about the earth and what was happening, we no one was there to see it happen. So

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In particular, I think giant geology was a great place for me to go to be able to still feel like there was some creativity happening in my life in some way.

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And then eventually getting to a point where I was comfortable with my work and now coming full circle and being back to writing it took a long time to get their to feel like I could do that and have the time to do that.

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But again, if I hadn’t become a geologist, I wouldn’t have the stories to tell that I’m now writing it.

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You know, I mean, it was really again being out of my comfort zone. The created all these great stories that were then you know then became a part of the things that I like to write about and talk about with people.

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So let’s let’s connect those two things you’ve I want to, I want to hear more about your like what you do your

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Research and because I I find I find that fascinating. I love detective stories, that’s

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The oldest longest detective story. There is absolutely no

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Yeah, maybe. Maybe the universe. I think the physicist and astrophysicists would say 14 billion years of universe history is a little bit longer but that’s all connected. That’s a fair point. Yeah, but you can’t dig into Jupiter. It’s called take in the backyard. That’s right. That’s right.

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But, you know, so tell me like that. You know what your what your researches right now because I because I find it fascinating and then because you just mentioned, writing, we can lead into

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You’re writing a book. Yeah, we’re have written. Yeah, a book or maybe somewhere between the written and edited and Britain and yeah, that’s where I’m at.

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But so the research that I started in for my PHD was all about it was it took place in Tibet, so I got to work in southern to that which is amazing.

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Yes. And that was, I will say that that trip to Tibet in 1999 when I had never really camped or height or any of that before and now it was, Hey, let’s go to Tibet for three and a half months and live at 15,000 feet and attend

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With no running water, and you’re going to be the only woman on the trip Andrew advisors not going and, you know, all of these things.

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Was really really scary. And that was another one of these instances where I found myself in a position going, I am not equipped for this. I really think I want to do it. Yes, that’s so great right

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And so, you know, saying yes to that was really the jumping off point for my research and for what I do now for who I am. I mean, everything about who I am really I think started culminating on that trip discovering what I was capable of

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But that research was all about trying to figure out how the Tibetan Plateau is formed over time. So it’s, it’s the highest plateau on Earth. It’s the biggest plateau on Earth. The Himalayas border and they’re the tallest right

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Mountains on Earth, and people are fascinated by that place for good reason. I mean, not just geologically but geologically. It’s the only place on Earth where we today.

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Have two continents, still, you know, slamming into each other. Basically colliding and so that creates a situation that’s very unique. It’s a geologically unique situation that we can study and see happening today so

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That number one was a great opportunity to go there and then the research was really sort of. Okay, so now we’re going to focus on the one mountain range in southern Tibet.

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Where we have rocks that used to be about 15 kilometers deep are now exposed at the surface. They’ve been sort of tectonically zoomed are brought up to the surface.

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And we can go in and we can collect them and study them and figure out how old they are, and and learn something about

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When these pieces of the Tibetan Plateau. We’re forming and how they came together and how they created this high typography. So that was really what my research was and it was focused on using

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A radioactive elements uranium, which turns into lead and capturing

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Uranium and lead for out of these little tiny crystals like little teeny tiny crystals on the rock that contain uranium and lead and you can zap them with a beam of oxygen. Basically, or a laser beam.

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And extract those isotopes and measure them and figure out how long that rock has been around. It’s crazy. It’s

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My it’s my exploding that this early and of course we can mind blowing. Yeah and there’s

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So it was really fun because I got to use like a big fancy machine that you know lots of people wanted to use and going in zap the soul grains and figure out how old they were

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And along the way, discovered that our ideas about that part of the world. We thought we knew pretty well how it formed

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And we didn’t, you know, you always learn something new and you start to dig in. Get beneath the surface. So,

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It was a lot of fun. And then in addition, you know, mapping, you’ve got a map in front of you. At the time, you know, we didn’t have GPS. We didn’t have all those things.

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Cell phones and you know all that. So we had a paper typography, man.

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You would locate yourself on the map would make a mark with your pen fall and then you would go to the next place and locate yourself and you would sketch in you know where the boundaries were between rock types and

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It was just loads of fun and you learn a ton of ton of things about here. So today.

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I don’t really, I do a little bit of that sort of peripherally with other scientists in my department, but my role in the research these days has become more about

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The broader impacts of the work and taking that work to the masses. So I’m really interested in bringing stem and science and geology to everybody, making it accessible and making it

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Something that may be other people might want to do, especially young women. So that’s sort of where I’m at today.

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I’m not running the samples in the lab during lunch anymore. That kind of thing. But I’m really, really interested in how do we how do we communicate our science in a way that people

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Understand it find it interesting aren’t turned off by it and how do we inspire more young people to to take that risk and jump into STEM, science communication is so incredibly important and it’s so difficult.

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Because it’s easy to, you know, it’s, it’s easy to explain some hard scientific research using the jargon and night talking to people who already understand. You don’t need to filter it you don’t write to still it yeah but trying to explain it to someone who

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Has no background right whatsoever and then you add in that we’re in a time when science is under attack. And there’s a lot of questions about whether people

00:18:12.690 –> 00:18:22.920
Things are real that scientists know are real, you know, climate change comes to mind. And the fact that we’re in 2018 illiterate, you know, developed nation and we still

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Have to try to convince people. That’s something that scientists, you know, 97% of all scientists who study this say yes we have all the evidence that’s real. And people still question it.

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So when you’re trying to not only explain the science to people weren’t scientists, but maybe those people also already have a preconceived idea that what you’re telling them isn’t real or isn’t true.

00:18:44.460 –> 00:18:50.130
And it can become very contentious. And that’s something that I think the scientific community hasn’t quite yet figured out

00:18:50.610 –> 00:18:55.770
How to Overcome we tend to just go back to our facts because that’s what we’re comfortable. Yeah, and that’s what we know.

00:18:56.640 –> 00:19:01.680
And it’s hard for us to believe that there’s any other way to sort of convey the information actually took a

00:19:02.070 –> 00:19:11.400
Workshop about this, about science communication through the Alan Alda center. They came to campus last year and they did a workshop and it was fascinating. It was I learned a lot about

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You know where you start from where you’re coming from. When you’re trying to communicate. It could be any topic, but especially science.

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Makes it a huge difference and try it, you know, trying to connect with people on a human level first

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Is something that I don’t think all of us think about doing we just come in hot with our ideas like I know I’m right. And this is all my evidence and I’m just going to lay it out and they’re going to believe me and doesn’t work that way.

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Yeah, there’s some. It makes me think there’s a few podcasts that I think

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I feel like there’s currently like devaluation of facts. Yeah, right. The Facts aren’t aren’t worth what they used to gym worth

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And that’s why I love podcast, like, you know, the skeptics guide to the universe and Talk Nerdy to Me and my favorite one. No such thing as a fish, which is the the writers from queue show quite interesting.

00:20:00.900 –> 00:20:16.680
They have a podcast that they just there for favorite facts from the past seven days and they talk about and they just go off on rants and stuff but you learned so much right but only if you appreciate the fact that these things are fact demonstrably true you can trust it. Yes.

00:20:17.730 –> 00:20:24.630
Because I think when you go into it on an already thinking, I’m not sure about this I you know I don’t trust that person. Yep.

00:20:25.920 –> 00:20:38.670
You’re the conversations over already. Right. Yeah. Right. And that’s the point is we have to figure out how to each other. Exactly. Yeah. And you know we’re I think sometimes when people say, you know, or that they distrust now connects

00:20:40.050 –> 00:20:42.210
Experts across any field.

00:20:43.770 –> 00:20:49.890
It makes me think. Do you think that people like that’s their lives. This is their reputation. Do you think they would lie to you. Yeah.

00:20:50.580 –> 00:21:02.160
When other people are just you know what their position or want to be more famous or more well known or better known for their thing than they are right there probably kind of jumped on them and say prom. Right, right, right.

00:21:03.300 –> 00:21:10.620
Which is why sciences peer reviewed. I mean, that’s the other thing that I think a lot of people who aren’t in the world of Sam don’t understand is that when you are

00:21:11.100 –> 00:21:17.490
A PHD when you are publishing papers. When you’re a professor, you know, all of these things come with requirements and that is

00:21:17.880 –> 00:21:23.490
That your work is rigorously reviewed by other people in your field and in fields related to yours, and so

00:21:23.940 –> 00:21:31.860
You can’t just write a paper about something that you think is true, without any supporting facts and evidence and information that other people, then

00:21:32.310 –> 00:21:41.910
Look at and scrutinize and it’s almost nearly never happens that you put in something in the first round. It comes bangled yep that’s perfect to publish it.

00:21:42.390 –> 00:21:48.330
If people come back and say, well, how do you know that weight that data doesn’t quite make sense. We think that redo that. You know, look at this and

00:21:48.720 –> 00:22:03.240
So it is a, it’s a grueling process to even get the information out there until the fact that so many people who work on climate science have come to the same conclusions and all of these things have been peer reviewed by people all over the world. You know, this is not a conspiracy

00:22:04.980 –> 00:22:07.920
So that’s, you know, it’s, it’s hard. As a scientist to see that.

00:22:08.640 –> 00:22:22.530
But, you know, truthfully I don’t deal with that as much as some other people do. Because I’m not really in the heart of that of the Mayan Simon science debate, but I do teach climate change is part of my survey course to non science majors and one thing that is really

00:22:23.790 –> 00:22:26.040
Encouraging is that a lot of my students a lot of this.

00:22:27.120 –> 00:22:35.550
Generation of college students today. They have grown up in a climate change world. They don’t know anything else. Right, so they are much more open

00:22:36.210 –> 00:22:43.470
To these ideas and most of them. I’d say the majority of them do believe that this is a problem that it’s true that it’s real, and that we should be thinking about it.

00:22:43.830 –> 00:22:56.310
So that’s really encouraging I often think that maybe believe isn’t even the right word, right, you shouldn’t I shouldn’t believe that’s right. In fact, you can. I mean, in fact, you can write trust it. Right now you can trust that this thing is true, right, I believe. Yeah.

00:22:57.540 –> 00:23:07.290
This that or the other. But I know that the sun is going to write new just going to rotate the sun’s going to show up over there and it’s tomorrow. I don’t need to believe that right but if you know so I feel like in that broader

00:23:07.650 –> 00:23:18.000
Conversation, I feel a lot often that word. Yeah. Whenever I hear that is kind of cringe. Like that’s unfortunately it’s there. It’s part of the conversation. So you kind of go there, naturally, but yeah, I agree with you.

00:23:20.250 –> 00:23:22.830
So, so let’s, let’s, how did that bring you to

00:23:23.985 –> 00:23:30.030
I wanted to mention, real quick, you’re, you’re talking about Tibet. Yeah, my wife is from Bolivia, yes. I mentioned earlier.

00:23:31.110 –> 00:23:36.540
And I visited there with her a couple years ago and I never even been out the country, Ohio.

00:23:37.680 –> 00:23:42.510
And the Hawaii. So I’d been over an ocean right but i never been to a different country which is kind of embarrassing.

00:23:43.200 –> 00:23:58.710
Because I was in my early 30s. By the time I actually left the United States. Anyway, we went to pause when URL, and she told me how high they are she told me what the elevation was. And I was like, I understood it as a number. Yeah, but not as a experience.

00:24:00.510 –> 00:24:09.150
So 15,000 we were at like 13. Yeah. And that was bad enough, I would lose my breath. Yeah, washing my face in the shower. Yeah, just holding my just

00:24:10.650 –> 00:24:11.130
My head away.

00:24:12.270 –> 00:24:24.510
Of Hearst say I can’t imagine. Yeah, three months. You said three and a half months at 15,000 close to, I mean, so we started, you know, you start you spend a week or so in Lhasa which is the capital city and it’s about

00:24:25.020 –> 00:24:32.340
About 12,000 which is still really darn high but you know you spend three, four days, they are just acclimating there’s really not much you can do.

00:24:32.730 –> 00:24:36.870
Take a little walk. And then go on your bed with a headache and hope that you don’t throw up.

00:24:37.530 –> 00:24:41.040
And it feels that way for several days, you know, pounding head and all of those things, but

00:24:41.460 –> 00:24:47.730
The thing about altitude is that if you do go slowly. If you take your time and you, you know, going to higher altitude.

00:24:48.090 –> 00:24:54.480
You acclimated each step. This is why people who climb Everest have all these different camps where they spend multiple days to try to let their body acclimate

00:24:54.930 –> 00:25:02.160
It works better for some people than others. You know, our metabolisms are all different. And so some people who have a really hard time and others are okay.

00:25:02.970 –> 00:25:17.520
But once we got out into the field. It was, you know, somewhere between you know 14 and 16 on a regular basis is where we were camping, you know that your base elevation medical out during the day and you’re hiking into these little mountain ranges to collect rocks and so

00:25:18.720 –> 00:25:25.710
One of my favorite stories to tell was my very first week out from the field. Again, not a camper on a hiker we’re out there. We set up a camp.

00:25:26.040 –> 00:25:29.820
And the second day, we decided we were going to go after this rock that was up in a

00:25:30.210 –> 00:25:37.470
It’s a kind of a bowl shaped depression in the side of a mountain that’s been ripped out by a glacier, so it’s it’s called the search and the ice is sort of carved it out.

00:25:37.740 –> 00:25:46.200
And that leaves this beautiful, you know, exposure of rocks, where you can kind of see and you can grab samples. So we wanted to go there. You’re looking for a particular rock that we really wanted to find

00:25:46.740 –> 00:25:52.710
But where we were headed. Was it about 18,000 feet elevation. So it’s our first week in the field. Second day doing work.

00:25:54.360 –> 00:25:57.780
We were camping it maybe 14 and a half and something like that.

00:25:58.950 –> 00:26:05.820
And you know the guys I was with who are also graduate students in geology. Oh no, this will be fine. You will do it. It’s not a big deal. So we did

00:26:06.510 –> 00:26:11.280
Right, exactly, or whatever. So we go you know it was a crazy day just giving up the remade it

00:26:11.970 –> 00:26:23.010
But, you know, the next day I was horribly altitude sick and I had never experienced anything like that we really just like every cell in your body feels like it’s on high alert, you know,

00:26:23.430 –> 00:26:29.610
Everything hurt. It was you couldn’t stay still. But when it hurt to move you know it’s horrible nausea pounding headaches.

00:26:30.360 –> 00:26:40.560
There are medications you can take they make your fingers and toes tangle until your, your extremities are tingling, it’s, it’s just a strange scary weird feeling and trying to

00:26:41.220 –> 00:26:49.770
Sign a little tests and take samples. Well that day, we just stayed in the tent, because we were all sick, you know, we went okay that was a mistake. I should have done that.

00:26:50.490 –> 00:26:57.960
But, you know, after a month or two out there, it, it felt like I was anywhere else. Honestly, by the end of that three and a half months.

00:26:58.920 –> 00:27:07.500
You know, I was able to jog, I would you know jog along and outcrop or something and not really feel that much different than I did at home at sea level.

00:27:08.130 –> 00:27:15.750
And then you get back to see live only feel amazing right because you’re totally your body is acclimated to like no oxygen to my error. Yes.

00:27:17.760 –> 00:27:18.510
Opposed to

00:27:20.700 –> 00:27:30.900
Where did we stop Santa Cruz yeah gotten send it goes and it’s like 400 feet above sea level. Yeah, look at it like yeah there was crunchy couldn’t breathe into yeah yeah

00:27:31.530 –> 00:27:38.370
And just to give people perspective, you know, because a lot of like you say you don’t really you can’t sort of fathom what that elevation is if you’ve never been there so

00:27:38.670 –> 00:27:46.710
Where we are today in Tucson has about 2500 feet above sea level, you know, so in LA at the beach or at sea level and worried about 2500 feet.

00:27:47.670 –> 00:28:02.490
If you go to Denver. Right. It’s the mile high city. So it’s around 5000 feet and then you go up from there. So 15,000 feet is a big deal. It’s, it’s a big change in some people, you know, they go to Denver and they have headaches and they feel out of breath so

00:28:03.600 –> 00:28:12.900
It is something that is an experience that I’ll never forget. And it was part of why we’re so afraid to go, you know, I might die over there. I’ve never been to hire elation.

00:28:13.410 –> 00:28:17.610
You know, I like you. I wasn’t a big traveler. I mean it bent out of the country, but to cities.

00:28:18.330 –> 00:28:23.790
You know, I wasn’t like going to the tops of mountains and things like that. Those, those, it was a big deal.

00:28:24.300 –> 00:28:32.250
And you’ve got all these things up your, your trip and your process and all that into we’re kind of we were started talking about your book. Yeah.

00:28:33.030 –> 00:28:43.140
Yeah I about maybe eight or nine years ago I was looking back through, I kept a journal when my first time to Tibet in 1989 my mom gave me a journal. And she was like, you know, you might want to

00:28:43.470 –> 00:28:49.140
Record some of this stuff because she knew like this is crazy login. She would say to me, why are you doing this. It’s insane but

00:28:49.770 –> 00:28:59.070
So I have this journal and because I had been a writer, it made sense to me. I like to write. And so at the end of each day I would come back to the 10 at night and I would get my sleeping bag and

00:28:59.580 –> 00:29:06.240
I would open that journal and I would just jot down the things that I’d experienced that day or seen and almost all of them more

00:29:06.870 –> 00:29:15.990
Unbelievable because they were just it was so out of my norm, you know, not only high elevation and these beautiful geological things, but also the culture, you know, being in a

00:29:16.980 –> 00:29:28.590
Culture that’s so different from ours was new to me because I’d only really ever been to Europe. And so it just was everything was different. So I wrote, you know, every night, every single night. And so, about eight or nine years ago I was

00:29:29.970 –> 00:29:37.860
I was laying in my bed one night and I was going through my nightstand looking for something and they found that journal. And I was like, oh, wow, there’s my Tibet journal I folded out and started reading it.

00:29:38.400 –> 00:29:45.000
And I went, you know what, this is pretty cool like there’s some stories in here that need to be told, and

00:29:45.810 –> 00:29:53.610
People had asked me before. Why didn’t you write a book about your Tibet journey because the pictures I would show people picture they oh gosh, you know, when they want to know more.

00:29:54.180 –> 00:30:03.300
So I just started typing. You know, I just started writing things down and eventually it, it made its way into what it is today, which is really more not

00:30:03.840 –> 00:30:12.900
It’s not an armchair travel book where it’s just the observations from Tibet, but it morphed into how did I get there in the first place. Like how did this even happen, which is what we talked about

00:30:13.680 –> 00:30:19.770
And so now it’s really a memoir about you know me. And what happened to me with my dad passing how that changed me.

00:30:20.130 –> 00:30:32.400
How I found geology Wentz too bad, how that changed my life. And then sort of culminating in the person I am today and how important it is that I am a scientist, what that means to me as a woman, I think, is also a big part of the book.

00:30:33.600 –> 00:30:42.090
Which there you have it, just a great little transition into kind of a free plug. Yeah, so

00:30:43.230 –> 00:30:55.890
You have a podcast that you’re just getting off the ground. Just getting I’m so excited about that. Yeah. Cuz I never thought that I would get past 20 episodes and here we are. This is, this is actually going to go out on Tuesday. Tuesday. Today’s Tuesday. Yeah. Thursday.

00:30:57.300 –> 00:31:10.410
If I can get it all to hear and whatnot. And that’ll be episode 26 on. Yeah, so I’m really, really excited when people want to start doing this because I’ve had so much fun doing it. Yeah. And before we get into

00:31:12.720 –> 00:31:27.000
The Tell me a little bit about essentially what it is, but I love that the title. Yeah, and where that came from. Just bowled me over when you told me, Oh good source of that title because, yes. Well, we talked a little bit before the show about titles and

00:31:28.380 –> 00:31:38.850
And I still haven’t picked a title for my book. I mean, this is one of the hardest things you do when you create something it’s to attach a label to it because my God we’re stuck forever with this title. There’s a commitment.

00:31:39.990 –> 00:31:46.410
It’s a commitment and it’s the first thing people here. It’s the first thing people see when they’re searching and looking for things. And so you want it to appeal.

00:31:46.740 –> 00:31:53.730
To a broad number of people, but at the same time, it has to convey something that’s important to you. I think it should connect with you personally in some way.

00:31:54.300 –> 00:32:00.300
And you told me your story about new professor, which I found fascinating because I had no idea you started it when you were a new Professor right

00:32:00.780 –> 00:32:10.500
And all of the things that that can mean but so you know I had many iterations of title for this but I landed on the title plucky ladies and the word plucky

00:32:11.490 –> 00:32:15.810
For me, has a lot of meaning because, I mean, the definition of that word is is

00:32:16.200 –> 00:32:26.880
You know, sort of courage in the face of hardship and you know being tough and working through things. And, you know, which is a great I think lesson for all of us that that’s really important in life in many different ways.

00:32:27.630 –> 00:32:34.140
But it’s particularly important to me because being told I was lucky, the first time I’ve ever heard that term.

00:32:35.250 –> 00:32:45.810
Still kick it over the right I was a graduate student and I was meeting with my advisor and now just mind you as a graduate student in geology at UCLA, which is a pretty competitive place.

00:32:46.260 –> 00:32:53.190
And having the self esteem issues. I already had losing my father and being in science when I didn’t think I could do science and I

00:32:53.580 –> 00:33:01.200
Now granted, I had already done science. I had a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree and I still was like, why am I here. What am I doing this is too difficult for me.

00:33:01.740 –> 00:33:12.900
And, you know, then to be told to be in the office of your advisor and having a conversation and have him sort of out of the blue, make this comment that. Well, you’re not that smart, but you’re plucky you know

00:33:13.650 –> 00:33:25.260
Okay, so your reaction right there. That was my reaction because all I heard in that moment was you’re not that smart, which really hurt. I mean, it made me feel like I shouldn’t be here. This is terrifying.

00:33:26.070 –> 00:33:33.570
But I didn’t hear that the compliment part which was that your plucky and he actually said, you know, it’ll take you far in this in in academia.

00:33:34.770 –> 00:33:45.570
And so I honestly don’t think that he was trying to be mean, I think that he was trying to make the point that you don’t have to be a genius.

00:33:46.140 –> 00:34:02.430
To be successful in academia. And I think that that applies to pretty much anything you do in life. I mean, vast majority of us were not gifted with natural talent in some way, like we just, you’re not born to be, you know, a maestro piano player. I mean, very few people are right.

00:34:03.780 –> 00:34:09.930
And those people. Great, they should go off and do those things. And that’s amazing. But the rest of us have to dig in and work really hard.

00:34:10.290 –> 00:34:20.610
Not to say that talented people don’t work. I know that they do. But a lot of us aren’t you know we don’t have that natural ability. Sometimes maybe we do, but it’s not in the field that we want to pursue

00:34:21.120 –> 00:34:32.340
So sometimes it’s easy to say, well, you know, I’m not good at math or science. So I’m not going to do that. I’m going to do what comes easy to me, which is, you know, whatever it is. I’ll be an English major, or I’ll be this or that.

00:34:33.720 –> 00:34:41.970
Or maybe I don’t have really natural musical ability, but I really want to learn how to play the guitar. You know, why shouldn’t you do that. It’s going to take hard work. It’s going to take block.

00:34:42.600 –> 00:34:47.910
And so now looking back, I feel like that was such an incredible compliment and how

00:34:48.720 –> 00:34:58.560
How wonderful it is to be plucky and to have people recognize a while you know you work hard and you get to where you want to go because you work hard, even if it’s difficult. You do it.

00:34:59.130 –> 00:35:09.180
And so plucky ladies is really about. I want to talk to women about the things they’ve had to overcome in their lives things they’ve done that maybe were difficult but got them somewhere.

00:35:09.450 –> 00:35:19.170
Where they wanted to go or maybe change their life times in their life that maybe they said yes to something that was scary and how that changed their lives are made them figure out who they were.

00:35:19.890 –> 00:35:30.150
I think we all go through this at some point in our life where we have to ask ourselves the question, is this really what I want to be doing. Can I do that, what, what am I gonna have to sacrifice to get there to do that and

00:35:31.230 –> 00:35:35.520
And I think it’s easy to say no to those things, you know, and I think where

00:35:36.120 –> 00:35:41.850
But where the real most important things in your life come from or when you say yes to those things and you did.

00:35:42.150 –> 00:35:51.150
A TED talk or tedx talk called thing. Yes, yes. Yeah, which is not going to be available when this goes out. But when it is right. I will add it to the show notes. That’s awesome.

00:35:51.420 –> 00:35:55.020
So yeah, you can watch. Yes. It’s been a long time coming in the waiting a while to get

00:35:55.380 –> 00:36:03.450
The links up, but it turns out it’s a really complicated process because it has to go through Ted themselves. The main guys. And so, you know, that’s you have to wait and that’s fine.

00:36:04.080 –> 00:36:08.250
But yeah, I did this back in February here on campus. It was the first you have a tedx

00:36:08.820 –> 00:36:17.670
And my talk. I didn’t, I didn’t know about this athlete. Well, you know, because you wouldn’t. I mean, we tried to advertise it. But it, you know, it only goes so far. If you’re not looking for it, but

00:36:18.180 –> 00:36:23.400
My talk was called saying yes, taking risks in pursuit of self discovery and it was all about saying yes to Tibet.

00:36:24.630 –> 00:36:30.540
And what that meant for me and how it changed my life. And so I you know I really my goal with podcast with the talk with the book.

00:36:31.650 –> 00:36:39.030
It’s really just to sort of inspire people, but especially young women because I do still think we’re at a disadvantage, you know, young women.

00:36:39.570 –> 00:36:49.680
In this country to not think about your limitation so much are not thinking about what is the path that makes the most sense. Sometimes it’s the stuff that doesn’t make the most sense.

00:36:50.130 –> 00:36:57.300
That really takes you to places you never thought you could go and you discover what you’re capable of but also what you’re passionate about.

00:36:58.500 –> 00:37:03.810
And sometimes that means you have to say to mom and dad. I don’t want to major in business, you know, yes, I will get a job.

00:37:04.140 –> 00:37:10.080
But I’m really passionate about anthropology, or I’m really interested in fashion or I really want to be a dancer.

00:37:10.860 –> 00:37:14.580
You know, I met I met a young woman wants who came to you have a. She was from my hometown.

00:37:15.150 –> 00:37:20.490
And she was here in the dance program, and she told me that when she was thinking about college and where to go, what to do.

00:37:20.910 –> 00:37:31.110
It never occurred to her that she could go to college as a dance major she had been dancing our whole life, and it was her favorite thing in the world to do. And luckily, it will. I think it was her parents who said to her, we could major

00:37:33.420 –> 00:37:42.450
Possible when you can make do make a life around that. But I think for a lot of people these choices may seem scary because they’re not practical. Maybe it seems not practical.

00:37:43.530 –> 00:37:53.610
That’s, I mean I got that kind of i mean i pie initially was an English major. Yeah. And it was like, well, I guess I’ll teach yeah cuz you know what am I gonna do with an English degree teach English

00:37:54.900 –> 00:38:03.090
And then 20 years later, I find myself teaching us cyber operations program and talking about augmented reality and stuff like that so

00:38:04.260 –> 00:38:10.290
I was reading Shakespeare and I’m in college. Yes, and that we need to when I started as an English major, my backup plan was

00:38:10.530 –> 00:38:15.750
If I don’t get into the communication school, which was top notch and really difficult to get into and become a journalist.

00:38:16.140 –> 00:38:22.800
I can still be an English teacher and I can write on the side and you know all those which is great. That’s a fine pursued. I’m not saying saying nice things about that.

00:38:23.550 –> 00:38:27.060
But for me, it was just the fact that it had gotten too stagnant.

00:38:27.630 –> 00:38:31.500
It was almost too, you know, everything was very even keel and easy going and

00:38:31.800 –> 00:38:38.850
You know, you’re getting straight A’s, which is great, but what am I really getting out of this, like, I’m going to read another book that I’ve already read and, you know, all these things.

00:38:39.660 –> 00:38:48.030
And that was geology, was that little spark that I needed to sort of say there are things out there that you know nothing about that are going to blow your mind. And don’t you want to get into that.

00:38:48.720 –> 00:38:55.500
And yeah, I did want to get into that and it was it did blow my mind in the best of ways and you want to talk to specifically other women.

00:38:56.250 –> 00:39:00.420
That have done kind of the same thing. And you told me about the one of the people you’re going to have on and I don’t want to

00:39:00.690 –> 00:39:08.490
Drop any spoilers or anything. Well, I can tell you that sheet. The reason I asked my first guest to be on this cuz she’s fascinating. She has a very difficult unusual background.

00:39:08.880 –> 00:39:18.270
And still was able to follow her passion through a very tough route and now making her living at her passion, which is a passion that is not normally thought of as a way to make it live.

00:39:19.290 –> 00:39:33.600
So that’s that was what drew me to her. But yes, I’m seeking out other women, maybe in STEM, but not necessarily. My first guest is an artist. She’s not a scientist, but I know a lot of women in science community who

00:39:34.500 –> 00:39:46.410
Have done things that you wouldn’t necessarily picture a woman, you know, leaning out of a helicopter to collect lava samples or, you know, spending three months in Antarctica and attend, you know, studying whatever they’re studying. I mean,

00:39:47.190 –> 00:39:57.300
Women do all of the same things that men do in terms of things that seem very physically dangerous and difficult and risky and intellectually right difficult

00:39:57.840 –> 00:39:59.580
And so I really want to bring to light.

00:40:00.330 –> 00:40:07.110
To help inspire other young women. I want to bring to light the fact that women are doing amazing things. And it isn’t always easy. And how did they get there.

00:40:07.350 –> 00:40:18.450
So that’s really what I want to focus on with plucky ladies is sort of and the tagline is. OK, so just to get because you need to send so like, what am I going to hear when I listened to a lot of people might see that title and why don’t even know what plucky means

00:40:18.990 –> 00:40:32.580
And so it’s tales of female curiosity perseverance and feats of excellence. And so that’s really, I want to get it. What were you curious about what sparked your passion. How did you get there. That’s the perseverance piece. And what are you doing now.

00:40:33.090 –> 00:40:40.260
That’s excellent in your life. So that’s sort of where it’s going to go. I hope this expert level tagline. I love it. Great.

00:40:40.710 –> 00:40:52.290
Thank you. And so, you know, I’ll put the plug out there to for women who are listening. If you’re a professor here or not doesn’t matter. You know, if you’ve got a story to tell, get in touch with me because I’m looking for ladies share their stories.

00:40:54.150 –> 00:40:58.350
So make sure that we had that share their stories. Yeah, that’s right, don’t edit that product.

00:40:59.730 –> 00:40:59.970
So,

00:41:02.400 –> 00:41:09.750
How does the, how would they go about contacting you, if they wanted to get involved. So there’s several ways I’m they can just email me at my university email which is Jay cap.

00:41:09.900 –> 00:41:18.090
At email about Arizona dot edu they can find me on the geosciences website. I have my own web page there and there’s my email address is there.

00:41:18.510 –> 00:41:28.890
They can also I have my own website, which is just cap calm and on there. You can send me email and it’ll have, you know, has my Twitter on there so you could tweet at me and you know there’s lots of ways to do it.

00:41:30.270 –> 00:41:37.440
I’d love to hear. I’d love to hear people’s stories you know any anyone who’s got a story to tell, send me an email. Tell me your pitch and I’m, I’m happy.

00:41:37.890 –> 00:41:45.300
To talk to you because I just think I also feel like there’s so many people out there with these amazing stories like when you and I first met at a fellows lunch.

00:41:45.750 –> 00:41:52.560
We wouldn’t have known that we had in common that our fathers died when we were 19 and we wouldn’t have known you wouldn’t have known I’d ever been to Tibet and lived in a tent.

00:41:52.860 –> 00:41:59.580
I would never have known you know what you were doing. And so this is the way that we learn about other people is to have them tell their stories and

00:41:59.850 –> 00:42:12.780
I find when I hear a story like this from another woman I’m inspired, you know, it makes me want to keep going and learning new stuff and doing new things because of the amazing things people are doing. So that’s what I’m hoping it will be, I have no doubt that it will

00:42:15.600 –> 00:42:21.330
And it’ll I hope it will be entertaining and interesting as well just saying, Oh yeah, well yeah, people are fascinated

00:42:22.500 –> 00:42:23.880
And what do you, what do you what the home. I think it’ll be

00:42:25.410 –> 00:42:32.820
You’re going to be doing it probably right here. Right here. I hope so. Yeah. Horrible hearing horrible, horrible. It’s going to become the location.

00:42:33.360 –> 00:42:38.220
And legend of podcast. That’s right. So we’ll be doing it here and I will be posting it

00:42:38.610 –> 00:42:45.480
To whatever site we use here, but also my own you know my website geosciences website. So I’ll try to push it out and in several different ways.

00:42:46.020 –> 00:42:52.830
To get out to people and you have a just for references basic timeline when you’re when you’re hoping to get it.

00:42:53.340 –> 00:43:02.970
Out there as well. So my hope is we’re going to record our first one next week. And so my hope is that the first episode will go out, if not next week, then the following week so sometime in that first or

00:43:03.390 –> 00:43:06.390
Second week of October is when the first episode and then

00:43:06.690 –> 00:43:16.560
You know, I think at the beginning. If I can get one episode a month. Done. That’ll be good, but I would love at some point for it to become a weekly thing but it’s going to take time because I got to find all the people

00:43:17.010 –> 00:43:28.950
Right now, I think I have three lined up so that wouldn’t even get me through first month. No, no. It takes time. It takes time. It takes a lot of work, and we’ll see how many people are interested, you know, if nobody listens to it, then maybe it’s not worth

00:43:30.165 –> 00:43:38.580
Trying to find more people but yeah I don’t look at audience. I don’t I don’t look at metrics or anything should do it because I have fun. That’s right. That’s right. There is

00:43:39.030 –> 00:43:44.280
Like it absolutely all the rest that Father. Yeah, that’s right. That’s traffic means less I have to pay for the bandwidth

00:43:46.170 –> 00:43:55.110
That’s true. Okay, well, just I think we have rattle on long enough. And I think the trolley is going to come by and thing is pretty so I think

00:43:56.190 –> 00:44:04.920
We’ll probably wrap this up. So thank you for coming. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I thoroughly enjoyed it. So another plug for Jess’s podcast plucky ladies.

00:44:05.850 –> 00:44:11.100
And I’d like i said i put everything in the show notes and as things roll out. Yeah, I will continue to add it. Awesome.

00:44:11.550 –> 00:44:24.990
And I will be as much of a tremendous voice for you as I possibly can and I for you, but it’s been wonderful. And I always love sitting down with fellow, you have a person and having a chat and a fellow fellow and a fellow fellow

00:44:27.030 –> 00:44:29.130
Yep, that’s said the fellows. Thanks.