When I was in college many years ago and a couple thousand miles from where I am now. I met a lot of people and learned quite a bit, not just from textbooks but from the people I surrounded myself with--be they classmates or friends... or both--and the internal struggle to become better than I was. 

Oddly, or maybe not as that's just how things in higher education seem to go, someone that was present for some of my most formative experiences (and, as you'll hear, his, as well) just so happens to work up the road at ASU. Last weekend he made the trek down to Tucson and we had a great conversation over coffee, which is what you're about to hear.

So, without further ado, here's my conversation with Ben Scragg, the Lead Design Strategist at the Mary Lou Fulton Teacher's College at Arizona State University. Enjoy!

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So I think we're good. Yeah.

In the, in the immortal words of every guest on WTF okay we started

Started. It started while ago.

So you said you had some stuff you want to talk about, well, yeah, I'm here.

Mostly for for

Where I would start with promotional purposes to talk a little bit about LLC, but I'm also interested to talk about what the experience has been, like,

When your side, just in the last just in the last year, thinking about

You know, being part of the consortium effective practice for

Squad Goals network and then can have your own effective practice this time around for what we're doing right now and then.

kind of talk about LLC innovate.

Kind of more broadly the programming kind of what your role in that has been so

Just because we're in the season of let's go to this conference. It's April, we just in the last we talked to both our keynotes and that

is super exciting. And then, yeah, some of it is

We were talking about this a little bit last night, but the extent that we're friends. There's been a decade of a gap from when we first met, to kind of like the way that we're reconnecting and I think

Maybe, maybe we start there. But Ohio University is where we both went to school. I went there for undergraduate

Bachelor of Science in education and did some did some miners there but yes and add. Yeah, and I'm from

And my initials are BS. So it all. It all works out. It's all super appropriate, but also I am kind of from the area. So, more than anything, my association with kind of Athens and with Southeast Ohio.

Is is more about home and then I spent the last 10 years working at The Ohio State University, which is not quite. It's not quite a rivalry there, but there are definitely two distinct places. And so, so much of like

Have two degrees from there so so much my education. And like other like

Institutional identity is now kind of with Ohio State is, I think, oh you more is home. And so I don't know if we'll get into that. Or maybe we should just start there since I

Gave such a doctor sweet into it but well yeah I think you were just there. Right. Well, yeah, we went home for for the long weekend and had to battle with

Winter Storm Harper that turned out to be more like a slight annoyance Arbor.

1000 1000 flights canceled at O'Hare yeah and are we, it was nothing. We were there was a when they call it a nice line or something then kind of cut through the state.

And everything below it just got like some snow and some rain. It was fine. Everything above it out just pummeled. Yeah. And it was above us, so we just

We stayed home and I did electronic and home maintenance for my mother about two years in the making.

And Audrey did some embroidery. That's, that's great.

I like digital digital home maintenance is a great way to put that. Right. I mean, it is the experience. I think for

Me one I'm counting fully that my, my dad. Don't listen to this. What's great right is very much the

Very much the experience of i gotta tell the story. Now I gotta tell the story. Hopefully he will. Well, it's, it's much more reflective me that it is he, he's had an iPad for years and years and years early gen iPad and has done.

Whatever it is, he needs to do, kind of, I think, play games and read books and surf the web. And I think that works fairly well but I got a new one. And he's he's taken in the last my dad's in his early 70s and

In in the last few years, taken our last few months, taken to kind of like capturing some of his stories of his childhood.

Or early adult years that kind of led him to be an educator and so he was talking about, you know, he posted some Facebook posts on his experiences with his teachers and how those were formative and people have been receptive. And so we started a blog.

So we open up the iPad, get it started this first question. So how do I get my blog on here.

And I'm you know, it's, we're home and I'm trying to do other stuff like, What do you mean, have you logged in, know how, why isn't that on here.

And he's trolling me. It takes me a minute to get to figure out what he never coughs to it. I never confronted him about it, but I'm still find myself getting more and more. It's like

Why are you asking me these questions. Why are we doing this. And then he launches into this story which I know feel compelled to share that a buddy had got him a drone.

Few weeks ago.

And he was flying it and fluid into our Creek behind our house. We have a, it's a branch of the Hocking River. I don't think you're supposed to do that.

So his story of how he goes to fish it out and get it out winds up with him falling down essentially a hillside rocky hillside falling backwards into the creaking hitting his head on a Rock Creek and thinking to himself, this is how this is how this is going to end.

And so I you know he tells me the story very casually and with some glee that he is. He's escaped death clutches and I just find myself getting worse. Look, what do you do

And you know what, I think what I was, but I didn't tell him was like, you're gonna die on mean you are going to become a worldwide story.

Old Man drowns trying to fetch his drone that he flew into a creek moments like that. What man there's, there's a lot of ways to go. But that, you know, don't leave me with that. That's approaching a Darwin Award. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Wouldn't wouldn't be fitting or everything else, so hey how about. How about that for an opening. That's great.

So now that we're sufficiently warmed up. Then, and we can

You know, the best place to start is the beginning of diverse, you should probably

Introduce yourself because I am pathologically averse to give an introduction. That makes sense. Makes sense so I'm Ben spragg I am

currently work at Arizona State University and the Maryland full and teachers college Emily design strategist, which is kind of a fascinating.

Fascinating job job title and we're up to interesting work, particularly in the context of Arizona. But what's probably most relevant for for folks here given where our conversations likely to head is I'm one of the conference co chairs for LLC innovate.

Which will be taking place, April 3 to fifth in Denver, Colorado.

So and also a former classmate of yours in had to have been a

Ed CI course that Ed.

Yes, it is. Yes, 505153 Dr Naji Mohammed

So yeah, so thanks for having me. Yeah. And you're actually the first person. So we are in the studio. But we're not in the usual studio, because typically I do this on CAT scans.

The Office of Digital Learning. They have a studio. Oh, that the the first two people to be on the podcast, Angela. And Luis. Oh, they run a similar it's, you know, Angela kind of runs Odell in a way and

Louise ones. Okay. Studio. So all you dear listeners out there who keep track of guests. ANGELA I will make the case is the reason I'm here with you today. So I

Prior I joined as us. Teachers College in September 2017 and for the 10 years prior to that work that

The Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio. So it was through LLC in the community. We've kind of built and and kind of my friendship with Angela that led to the connections of networks of hey,

There's some work going on at ASU that might be interesting. So for for folks connecting the dots. She's also while not here features prominently in the in the stories of today. Yes, there's always a an Angela undertone. Yeah, under there should be

Sure she

Got under 2020 would appreciate us talk. I wonder if her ears are burning.

But, uh, yeah. So, but, yes, but instead of being at that studio we are actually in my house and it's lovely in my office, which

features prominently in all of my online class videos they get to look at my hodgepodge of a bookshelf to the to the dogs, make it into much of they do I call my tea. Yeah.

They always come up. I get flanked by the brownies. Well, I was super I was grateful for mentioned this morning when she was my she was my snooze button.

So I set an alarm overslept. And then she said, I'm to get up and it was it you know she's good for that way. She didn't drop that ball on your head. So what she does.

But under my seat. So I sat none of my head underneath me always comfortable and then she is for those that don't know that don't follow the

The Adventures of the pups in this place, man. G is the middle child, and she acts like

She's bossy. So let's, um, let's start the beginning. Yeah.

So bring us bring us back. Yeah. Take us back. I don't have a sound effect. Yeah, well,

So,

We had to have. I was actually I was trying to think through this last, last night I was having trouble getting into it had to have been so my I did five years at Ohio University. I started in journalism. So growing up, I thought, as I would play

Madden NBA Jam, I would announce along to those. And so my mom would walk past the room every so often with me playing video games thing you

You should really go to school for broadcasting and it turns out of how University is a great school for journalism. It was the best 25 miles away from my house. Growing up, so

That just always seemed like yeah, maybe I'll be good at that. And I remember what the one of the very early networking contents of the college with like the dean.

Being like, so why are you here and I'm 18 years old I know nothing about how to network or how to be even marginally impressive to anyone. Not that that's changed much.

And saying, so why are you, he was like, so you know, so why are you here, which is funny now because those are the kinds of like existential questions that I'm going about the pose to you.

To chew through, but I just said, Well, you know, I think I'm good at talking. This is literally what I said to this guy and he

Was one of the first people I think that I'd ever come across, who, like, you know, kind of took what took me seriously enough to say like, I don't think that's a very good reason to be here and it's not a networking event.

Aki file that under that may become relevant later or for anyone listening, it might be, you know, really obvious right now. But over time, kind of changed my major to education and

upon graduating moved to Chicago and taught high school in Chicago, but but the last my fifth year because I didn't switch to education, till I was in my third third year

Of my university.

I was an RA for two quarters and then I student taught my, my last spring term, but because I had finished all my coursework started signed up for our grad class and I knew

Doc Muhammad.

And had taken a different class with him and really liked him. It was like, just what can I take with us guy. I'm on the way out the door. I just

This is this is desert. Let's take a class with this guy. And maybe you can talk a little bit about your experiences with him as well. And it just a

Sadly, his past. But as a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant scholars who

Said guy provoked my thinking and and and the kind of way. That's like cuts to who you are, the guy that you need. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, it's, it's

Someone who would make a real strong distinction between being educated and being schooled right and he was there for education right he wasn't there for the school. Yeah. Yeah. And so

Just remember taking taking that class as a technically as an undergrad, but it being a grad class and

That's you were there. That's where we met. And so actually I

Thought this was going to be. I was gonna save this for last. But let's yeah let's start at the beginning you. I don't know if you remember this, but it was one of, like, my favorite assignments I ever did, he asked us to write a paper on

The anchors of our identity. So we had been like looking at identity and thinking about living themes and I think it had come from reading like the autobiography of Malcolm X as part of the course. And I remember some of the other

We read cart Cornel West, I think it was this dissertation ethical dimensions of Marxist dot one of these books in that class, which is are there on the books. Yes. Purple.

So, and probably Joel spring wheels in the head was probably part of that maybe things I said there. So here's a question for you to lead in and get me to stop talking.

Thank you. Is there a guest on my advice. If I say anchors of identity deep. Do you have any recollection of what you would have written for an assignment like that then and

If I pose that to you. Now, what do you think the anchors of your identity, or do you have easy or or kind of obvious.

things that come to mind. See, I don't remember that assignment. I really don't. I the things I remember from his classes and from that time, generally speaking, are more of kind of a mental static that occurs when you are questioning everything you've ever know.

You know when someone brings an experience to you. That is so holy foreign, you know, in a way that you can understand

But you still really have to wrestle with. That's everything else kind of gets the saturation turned down a little bit.

And that's what I remember. I don't remember that in that specific assignment I probably should. I probably got it in my computer somewhere because I kept I kept everything for the yeah 20 years. Yeah.

But it's that is a question that man I think about all the time I yeah this question of identity. Who am I, my mother had a thing on the fridge all grown up.

In that same house, my entire life that said something along the lines of the the books you read, and the people you associate with or what you become hmm and

I thought that was interesting. I'm not sure I believe it because I think that it's more complicated than that. But

I do think that it's interesting, and I don't know, maybe, maybe you can sympathize with this I find the older I get,

That I do see what I would call an identity as, you know, I can start identifying the different media that I consume the writers that I read the music that I listened to the thinkers that I've

And the friends that I've had. And I can, I can actually identify the composite parts of my quote unquote identity that are specifically related to those people are those things.

And the problem that I have with that is that it assumes that kind of assignment that kind of question you know that the anchors of right it

Is it's an open question. It never stops you ask the same question. Yeah. Two months later, and you're gonna have a different answer. Yes, at least you should because you should be

I hate using buzzwords like buzzwords like lifelong learner. Yeah, stuff like that. But if it's if it doesn't change. I feel like you're not doing enough

Yeah, so, so for me I I remember when I wrote, I don't have the

I don't think I still have that paper, but I can remember distinctly that one of the big themes. So I think the way it

That I wrote about it was in kind of bullet point themes and then I expanded on on those from a list, but the primary one was change that I add a point and and

Of course, at the time, it occurred has some great wisdom.

And

We don't necessarily discount that now, but

But I think it is interesting to think about. One of the things I thought I had had a similar experience where you're. This was a man who opened

Classes with

You know, this is a racist country and

This is a country built on white supremacy and white privilege and if you and you know your white person here you you have lived kind of

Under the comforting blanket of that even if you've never known it. Yeah, that that the invisible knapsack Becky Mackintosh's piece is such a seminal moment neck and you know like

Tim, Tim. Tim Wise of white wine was one of the first pieces you read and I got him to come speak there. So, because I'm I told you I was like, hey, I emailed Tim Wise and he's willing to come and talk here and as you look to he's like the hell did you do

Really good. Yeah. So it's you know it's one of those interesting things like

My I came into college was this very SET Plan. I had been attending

A really really kind of conservative evangelical church and left like reading

Reading You know, Cornel West and and yeah and Tim Wise and kind of kind of having this experience. And so I had, you know, in those years you you undergo a lot of change and some of it is not necessarily

That's not violent to your psyche. But did you do wrestle with a lot of things. And the tension of like holding different ideas in your head at the same time and kind of figuring out what those mean. And that was all really

Mean what's funny is college for me in that sense was all on a really it was all individual right it was all happening within me and and then

Being prepared to go be a teacher, where now all of a sudden you're responsible for so many other people but still kind of figuring those things out.

That was all an interesting time. But I was really grateful to him for that. So I remember change being one of those things and it

Changes so big and broad at the time it was the, what's the biggest box. I can think of that allows me wiggle room to not be anchored literally by these things. And so it, but I think it's kind of born out over time, but

My thinking is really shifted and shaped and changed, along with kind of the context, I find myself in are the same, like what I'm reading and what's influencing me

Because I mean, if, if the anchors quite yet to use this term at the angles of your identity or the same at 22 as they are when you're pushing 40 yeah

You've been what was he used to say shadowboxing. Yeah. And you've been shadowboxing with the world, probably well and i mean it's it's a funny thing where

You know, I mean, I just think about this, right, like because

It sounds like such an important answer that I instantly want to like

Absolutely no way like has whiteness been part of your I like an anchor of your identity and she's like, well, I mean, a big part of that right is like

That's to me and my understanding as that evolved is like, Well, part of it was that would be something that would always be invisible to you because you you've never know when it's not like to live as that or enjoy the privilege of that. So like

Yeah, just digging into, like, I don't think I put that my paper and I think it's funny, I, I'm still in school reading Bell Hooks right now and

Again, teaching community. Yeah, so that's that's the text for courses turn right. I'd started with teaching to transgress but now in reading teaching community. And one of the things in there that she

Was reading this on a plane over the holidays and me like that speaks to my life a lot is

Someone like me who's um you know I'm a really good case study for archetype of like, well, intention kind of white person but

Not always willing to kind of engage particularly like anti racist work of those sorts of things because

You fear the conflict or the fear of being misunderstood or stepping in places where you shouldn't and and being not willing to kind of endure the conflict of, let's say, being corrected or being

critiqued or engaging in that because it feels like a blanket. You were personally and it's it's speaking into some inadequacy in your soul. And so, like all the nuances and complexities that come around.

From that and and that's all wrapped inside of kind of just like one person's perspective so

So I don't know. I don't know if that's something I should dedicate more time to anything you'd like. Is that an anchor of your identity, but I can remember thinking at the time, like I'm willing to engage in these ideas change feels really good.

We'll, we'll, we'll see where the other stuff goes, yeah, I think that was speaking of

My presumed path when I went to college was I'm going to be an English teacher, and I'm going to move back home to my own down and be an English teacher there which is predominantly white

And pure middle class. Yeah. So, these, these kinds of questions until I got to that point when I took three or four something with him and

Matthew Shui. Hmm.

I had never needed to confront. Yep, those kinds of questions. You know, because it just was a non issue. Yeah, it's not. It was avoid it was just literally a mess or a non issue and actually

That's that's super that's super interesting to point out. Yeah, I had several classes with Dr. To me before, and he was he was working

I'm not sure it was obviously before he went to Virginia and I think he's a University of Connecticut now.

I'm just follow them through Twitter, but

Which is another interesting thing like threads of past lives and he's doing obviously incredible work but yeah he I think about that. Some he had classes with him before dark. Muhammad. And I think in some ways.

He did a lot of like Tim Wise and Joel spring were people that he had introduced

Me to and so like it's kind of a precursor to like the experience with Dr. Mohamed I think those were both really formative so yeah yeah he's he's someone who is really important to me. And I think that actually that progression.

Is

It was probably the best way that it could have happened. Yeah, I mean, now that we know more about, you know, called the backfire effect that you might be confronted with with facts that disagree or disprove your position, or maybe show that you are in the wrong and

You're less likely to just to go. Okay. I should probably change than you are to just dig in your heels and really kind of double down on that admittedly

Not ideal position, call it, you know, and the thing and speaking, you know, just for myself and, you know, middle class white guy. Mm hmm. I'm looking back on it if it had just been so if I had just straight gone into one of Doc's classes.

I don't know if that backfire effect would have not happened. I might have just been like, Well, you're just attacking me there are

The men, but I feel like Matthew Shui it you know as a 22 year old kid that with no experience in this whatsoever. No, that was such a great bridge, you know, you know, he really

Helped that work. And then of course you know I'm not. It ended up being like a like a father figure to me after my father passed. Yeah, yeah, he basically adopted me so well it's it's funny.

Yeah, I can remember having class. So I kind of

Crew member of the first class with Muhammad kind of going in there, kind of like prime to be like oh I not that it was, um,

I guess just like Oh, I'm excited because I have an expectation for this kind of stuff will dig into that's going to help me grow because there were there were definitely folks who that was their first experience and it was it was a confrontation.

Act like teaching, teaching for community like Bell Hooks comes right out of the gate, like a racist colonialist sexist and like I buy all that but it is

Or the writing of of Tracy McMillan condom. Who's going to be one of our keynotes innovate it you know

There is something in the experience of

You wake up in the morning you set your coffee down you open your screen to start reading and those words come at you or for me and it

It's literally just the saturation of of the summer experiences that I have to send her like my focus on like no that's right you you agree with this, and this. I mean, I think it's

Yep. You're here for this you buy this, you're in this is not

You don't have to read this as a personal attack on you. Yeah. And that is a skill that needs developed. Yeah, I think a lot of people in this their initial reaction is yes to being defensive

Not all men that shortly. But I'd not me. Yeah. Well, what did you say last night that everything's funny until. Oh, it was from the Dave Chappelle

While the combination specials, he did. I think in 20 must have been 2017 might have been 28 but the last last couple years of he leads off of everything's funny till it happens to you, right, and I feel like that's that's the mindset that

I had that when I first kind of ventured down this road of self betterment and understanding and and whatnot, that, you know, sure. This is an issue, but it's not. I'm not.

Reason, you know, like it's every it's everybody else's the problem, it's not me. Yeah. And we just utter shit. I guess it's it's it's

It's not, you're not in traffic, you know, so I can't remember where I heard, but it's like those little reframes of things. Well, one of the ideas right yeah you're when you're when you're driving and you're stuck. You're, you're not in traffic. You are the traffic.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, and so much of it for me. I think I can diagnose these things pretty simply as like just wanting to be okay wanting to not be part of a problem that I see that is obviously structural but I mean there.

I have individual behaviors and thoughts and actions that I take in my sphere but in broadly. I'd like to think that those have largely aren't problematic. But that's where some diagnosis in and of itself, but the other piece, right, is you just

You want to feel most people I would, I guess, make the case. It's like want to feel good about themselves, but in some of this stuff like some of the interesting critiques to me get into the nuance of like

Yes, and in setting up a life where you allow yourself to feel good, particularly through let's say inaction or

perpetuation of a lot of the stuff

You have basically the ability or privilege to to nestle into those spaces and live that way. And so, digging digging out some of that.

It's just been an interesting thought to me so

Yeah, it's yeah it's

There's a YouTube channel called counterpoint.

I don't know if you know counterpoints read my naturally when she does really fascinating and very entertaining cultural critique.

I came here exactly house. It's just like I complain about the internet. I think she said something like that. But, uh, she she did say she was given that the XO XO conference or something like that, um, she said.

That she was a PhD student studying philosophy and left about halfway through, because it's as it turns out to be examined life is not worth living.

And I'm going to put links to all this stuff looks like the especially especially Peggy McIntosh is invisible knapsack.

Because that was I remembered that the one thing that stuck out to me for some reason was band aids. Okay.

Because there's something not you brought up, and I think it's something that that Matt brought up to, but it's something that she says in her in her work.

It's like, you know, white privilege is it's the invisible knapsack that you carry around that's got all these things and at the you don't know that help you but they do. Like, have you ever had a hard time finding a bandaid to match your skin tone.

If the answer is no. Well, guess what.

And I just the simplicity of that the mundane at the Monday. Monday. Monday.

Monday. Monday. Monday. Monday I approve. How I don't know the simplicity of just it's a bandaid that's it it's just it's a banality but now. There you go.

I don't know why that stuck out to me, just because it was so kind of discardable

And you would never think of the band aid as a symbol of race racial inequality. Yeah. At least I wouldn't because I didn't need to. It was never in my face. Yeah, I need to banded a grab a band aid and put it on it, vaguely matches my skin tone never have to think about. Yeah.

It's probably a whole like

It's probably a whole conversation of the

You had just some of the reflection.

I mean, we're in that conversation, but

That's another project. Yeah. Well, yeah, or yeah all serious but

Yeah, the those pieces.

One of the interesting things I'll say, and this is this is not just in lieu of any other kind of more graceful segue because I think one of the interesting things, maybe even

Setting up some of this for us is that then it saturates the rest of the conversation or you can say, you know, that's good pretext for knowing that even this conversation we're having maybe happens within all that context. But I work work for

When you measure who's Associate Dean it in the mirror for Teachers College.

Office scholarship and innovation. He's the Associate Dean for scholarship and innovation.

And he he's an incredible teacher incredible educator. But one of the things that we talked about a lot, because this is who he is, is just seeing design in the world. And so, particularly like we bring a design.

Focused on approach to a lot of what we do in education and kind of see that design and education or I mean they're really interlocked and and

imbued with one another and kind of reified one another and so plenty of talks a lot about just he's a someone who's just really fascinating curious with the world and really observant.

And as a notice or of things. And so a lot of the times, he'll say well that's good design or bad design, just as we're walking around asking students to start

Kind of looking for good design and bad design and kind of with the idea that, like, hey, once you notice that most everything around us.

Is kind of artificial or has been made, even our systems and structures, then you can understand how they might be remade more redesigned

We crafted and where it gets interesting. Then is in

These spaces where you're not necessarily talking about

Just a band aid when you look at a band aid, you're looking at kind of the ethos of and and the thinking that went into, who is this band aid for and that that's it makes me think of

I can members first name, last name is Klein and in the 80s. He wrote a piece called what is technology or attempted to define technology and he came up with four different definitions and one of them is the

socio technical system or socio cultural system of use of something that it's not just the item. It's not just the people that make it. It's also the, the knowledge that asked it.

did go into making it. It's the production system that allows this thing to be made, but it's also the culture in which that thing is useful. Yeah.

Which is an interesting way of kind of pulling back from it and see the spider web of connections that make that thing useful and or necessary. Yeah. So Steven Klein Steven Klein yes ke Li ne he said here. Yeah, this looks great 1985 was technology. I'll check it out for sure.

Yeah.

I mean,

You weren't going to have a conversation with me without me dropping john Dewey here in various places and probably miss appropriating the quotes. But yeah, how do we define kind of technology as a way of thinking. And so not and as I'm as a methodology and not

Not just the physical stuff and so

It was a lot of folks kind of thinking about that design or even kind of the design thinking

Kind of materials and and pieces that have come out in recent years, you know, there's a whole set of mindsets that a company just kind of the procedural processes.

Yeah, and there we were talking about about post phenomenology is we just kind of my yeah my latest rabbit hole. Okay, then I'm thinking academically and cognitively speaking. Um, but one of the big names in that is his beak and he wrote

A book called What things do. And he writes a lot about design and how design changes the experience of our world.

So I would, I will put that in the show notes as well, but it's it's fascinating like he wrote an entire article about park benches.

Yeah, and the and i and i want to say that hey touches on

Maybe you'll know if this is if I'm saying this a little bit incorrectly, but like inconvenient design a discriminatory design. Yeah, there's me. There's no be real hot Benjamin LLC innovate.

That a lot of her keynote was was related to that. Yeah, like putting the putting the

It looks just like armrest yeah but it's an advisor, so people can't lay down and sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Or I noticed that around.

Yeah, when people will put kind of

Square benches are around you kind of otherwise planters for trees that they'll put those kind of artificial kind of metal straps that kind of just

Just would make it uncomfortable if you happen to lay down on that. And again, it makes me it's it's it's hard not to just, it's hard to focus. Yeah, sometimes because there's so many ways that you can go with everything that you're thinking about like honing in and not

Squirrel. Yeah.

I want to go follow this. So this is what's interesting. Then in in the work we're doing at ASU. And the teachers college. Some of that is looking

Maybe less overtly it let's say discrimination, but we are thinking about a schools school systems have been designed in particular ways and and

There are different kind of levels to that. So there's a discrete let's say

Moment of classroom instruction, where there's a there's a handout or a worksheet, or your there's a particular piece of technology.

We're employing to do a thing, but then within that, there's a larger kind of what you might consider instructional are learning experience design of

What's the context of the the objectives that we want a student to learn or how we're going to deliver that how we're going to assess it.

Just something even larger, which is, well, how do we organize the school. So are they in is it in one classroom with one teacher and 30 students or are there other ways we could organize and design that and then, you know, are there even larger things like

Is the school just kind of a box we you drop your kids off at 8am. You pick them up at 3pm you come back and get them you have gone off presumably to do your own thing, during the day.

And you come back and you hope they're better when you pick them up. It's the black box and they go in magic happens. They come in or

You know, and so just happens to look like in school is kind of a place on the way and the kids have their activities and their own light and they're kind of this discrete thing. And so, or thinking about

You know, what would it look like if school is really the hub of a community's life or

Nick Ruelas of the University of Illinois.

Urbana Champaign.

did some work on the idea of ubiquitous learning. So what happens when internet of things and wearable devices when the internet's everywhere.

What would that change around like what school that comes and so he had this idea one he was writing it. A few years ago, is like a social foundations issue, but

What if the school adopted a model of a hub and spoke, because if you could learn anywhere and anytime, then how might we change the nature of school. And so those are the ideas. I think we are

Kind of playing around with as we go work with communities to say, well, what are some one of the challenges around how your kind of schools and communities have been designed. One of the things we could do. And I think we're just scratching the surface.

In the context of of Arizona say how do we how do we contribute to what you're up to. So

I think it's an interesting overlap.

There the wheel and spoke model looks an awful lot like the Panopticon

Just a just 1000 for some death Sunday morning. You didn't tell me

Tell me, this is gonna be a fur coat conversation. Let's do this quickly over to

Yeah, out of one frying pan into another record skips everybody stops.

You don't come to them about you know what ever had. Well, well, I'm just going back through kind of the my own academic history. It's again, another person who's not likely to

I presume catch on to all my my confession. So I talked about my dad and some of you know

I have a book at home. I just picked up this week because Sukkot came back on the radar, one of our classes because obviously discourse about power, but

I have one food co book, which is kind of like a somebody else doing analysis of CO, which isn't quite the same thing but I picked it up this week and was like,

Are you crazy, you got you got a bunch of other stuff to do so. So hit pause on the call right now and in Dr. Sam Roca. Have you ever listened to this university of

British Columbia in Vancouver. I have your food co 2.0 book you let it to me, a decade account.

I still have it. I still have not read it. There you go. Yeah, I've got a book around here that's gotten algae or Muhammad written real big on this.

I don't even know which book it is anymore, but it's over there somewhere. But actually, while I'm doing plugs.

Sam has written, he's got this. It's a beautiful book called a primer for philosophy and education and he's got a beautiful metaphor about

Priming is painting, but it's also something different and so you the way that you prime something

Before you paint it you there's a there's an attention and Karen discipline and he kind of applies that to why philosophy matters for educators and reading

Philosophy, the idea that as a primer. So in the book is tiny. And it's got I think one of those family members did illustration. So Sam in lieu of taking your book.

Many years ago.

I will plug the books you've written, which are amazing and again in the show.

gonna buy that book right now. Yes, make up for

Whatever the cost of the book was and the link will definitely not be an Amazon affiliate

Right. Definitely not. Definitely not.

So yeah, so let's we kind of shifted in that direction. A little bit, yeah, I think you wanted to talk a little bit more about what I'll see because that's, that's really what yeah between between squabbles network. Well, yeah. Because I'm, I'm, I think one of the things that

This has been

I mean, not even just kind of the few minutes that we've been talking here, but I see

Oh well, see that the impact it's had just on the relationships that I've built in a lot of ways, I would say it's probably one of the reasons like that's in it kind of enabled us to reconnect even be here.

So yeah, I

Was at Ohio State for 10 years in 2013

Move from from one part of the university or staff over to the office a distance add an E learning. I became an instructional designer.

Which was I had felt like a good fit from essentially being a k 12 educator high school teacher.

To coming to Ohio State to be a learning specialist working with students kind of in individual settings to then designing instruction or supporting mostly online graduate degree online instruction and

Dr. Rob Griffis who was the bleeding, the distance Ed teams still does a great dude.

Was like, hey, you should probably learn to be an instructional designer. Now that you are one.

Why don't you go down to this LLC conference. It was ET for online back then. So I went to Dallas all alone and

They send out the email like hey, do you want to volunteer to like chair a session. I was like, well, yeah, I'll go ahead and do that since I'm going down alone. I might as well like

Learn to network and I had another great friend and colleague Tom Evans, say, oh, when you're down there, you should talk to this person and this person, this person and it was basically like

It was like hey you should talk to Jesse stumble and you should go me Amy collyer you and and Jim grooms keynote. So you should go say hi to him. And so, Tom new these folks and I

Not about like putting let's say them on a pedestal. But it turned out there like pretty influential and kind of leading both scholars and practitioners in these spaces and so all things equal, their

Big names. Yeah. And it turned out that they were

pretty active on Twitter and I hadn't really been so I was just like fired in like they're making dinner plans. I can see all that. And I'm like, hey, mind if I tag along. And they're like, Yeah, come on.

And I will end up just kind of hanging out just kind of riding their coattails through the conference. And it was like, This is my new friend group and they were so welcoming

And I mean, in that space met Laura best corny just not and i mean from there basically was like just not this is this is my person. I love her. And so basically through there met a whole bunch of other Ms. You folks who are amazing and like what they're up to it up at the hub and and

Kind of the way they approach working in and around the university is pretty cool. And so yeah, so I just kind of started building this network of friends who felt, you know, more like friends and like

I met a totally different institution. We don't work together I there's no obvious point of collaboration, but yet we just kind of maintain those friendships. And so through the LLC network just around this. This one conference kind of continued to meet

And drink bourbon with people and and really kind of build

A sense of the field to and found people who were really interested in some of these things that we've talked about, kind of, what's it mean to really do.

Really humanized online learning. So, Michelle, but can't ski Brock is just like in my mind is a legend, who is is leading the community college summit at innovate 2019 when she's chaired this conference.

Before. And so like it just kind of one of those things that the community in and around these spaces and the people who are doing really interesting work kind of all connects and so it's through that that kind of met

Angela and and have reconnected with you and it's like I yeah we know each other. It's like, oh, here's this whole history that opened up. And that was what maybe a year ago or so. So

I might have been down in New Orleans in 2017 but so these things are

It's exciting. I think it's one of the things that I've kind of discovered on my own, which I guess if we talked to some of the folks who might be listening might be you have a students

And there may be a broader audience, but my journey started as you know I have a bachelor's in education, a teaching degree with certification and

To teach high school or junior high social studies and yet the majority of my career has been in these other kind of interesting positions of

Instructional Designer learning specialist grant program manager and now a design strategist working in schools and most of it's all been connected to

Who you know. But the thing that has been interesting is that hasn't felt like a cheap adage, or it hasn't felt like, Well, if you're not a Vanderbilt.

Then you don't know anybody. It's been build relationships with finding kind of like minded like spirited people and and see where that takes you and find interesting work so

So I feel really proud of this conference. And that's why I'm really excited for kind of what's coming because it's been a place where it's been really welcoming and along the way.

Other people who are who've come on board, I think, I think it's the other piece is someone made space for me.

And I think we're trying to make space for people who will lead this after us and and the folks at the LLC, who are full time their support us in every way around that. So it's been this really interesting kind of interesting experience to say, oh,

These are fun people to connect with these are fun people to work with. And there's a there's a group of people who are committed to kind of fostering that so

That's my LLC love fast and and you should, if, if that doesn't sound like any any part of a community that anyone would want to join, then I should say there's like

Crazy amazing keynote speakers and really interesting kind of programming. And so just the last thing is a shout out to Clark Shaw Nelson. Who's, who's co chairing the conference with me. Clark is

Kind of another one. Those people who comes into your orbit like this, where did this dude, come from. He is

Yeah, he's strikes me like maybe he's just always been a spirit is just hovered over the earth since the beginning and will continue to he's just such a

Just such an engaging funny warm thoughtful guy. So I, my hope is that in some ways the the programming and the conference experience for people like reflects that. So,

And I think it does. I mean, the I initially got in with the LLC, folks. It was just because I'm actually Angela suggested that I chakra submit something to innovate the one in New Orleans couple years ago and I had like I'd never heard of it. I didn't know anything about it, you know, and

I was like, well, I mean, yeah, I can present. Is there anything else I can do and ended up being in the Innovation Lab. Yeah, we're in the lab coat. Yeah.

Yeah, with all you guys. And that's how I met all you and now I'm one of the check chair track brochures for innovation. Yeah. So the other than it, it's kind of, kind of,

undergone some changes over the years. So that was kind of my first foray into this was like it was the innovation lab was

Kind of part of the technology Test Kitchen had been playing around. That was kind of that was the precursor and still exists. Mostly, I think in OC accelerate and is a super engaging space, but the innovation lab. And now I think this year we're gonna cut the Innovation Studio.

That's really such a cool place and I know other conferences are starting to think about, like, how do we have that kind of perpetual space where people can come engage and play.

And really kind of

Do relationship building and and kind of

Be entertained as well. So I think that's

And collaborate. So I think those things are really interesting. So yeah, we have a pretty amazing team wearing that. So,

Just as kind of a check in. While it's here, what has been your experience this year with kind of workshops, as you took an approach where there particular things is you. You know, I think a lot of us are work in higher ed. Some of us are

More staff are kind of practitioner base. And I think there's a large audience there, you can have this

Interesting background is like starting in some ways is like support staff practitioner and are now have transitioned into being an academic though I think practice is still a big piece of

Kind of kind of what you do. Was there a particular focus you wanted to bring to like workshops and and the experience folks will have, I think, between me and my co chair, Sherry.

Our main focus was is this one, we would want to go to, I don't know, that's, I mean that was a main part, obviously.

A lot of it was, you know, what's, what's the zeitgeist II. What do people. What do we know people want to know about what do we think people will want to know about that they don't know, they want about want to know about yet. You know, the things that we see coming on the horizon.

That aren't quite here yet. And because that's the one thing that I always feel that innovate, especially

Can do just by virtue of what it is, is kind of take chances. Yeah, yeah.

Like I said yesterday, like part, you know, I personally believe that one of the core aspects of achieving that you know nebulous thing that we call innovation.

Is a willingness to fail. Yeah, yeah. Trying something that is a little bit out there, but it's based and rooted in in good theory. Yeah, and

Good Practice yeah just pushes it enough so that you're like wow yeah if that works. That'll be great, you know, that's what I want to hear about things if that works. That'll be awesome. Yeah.

Because there's always a chance it might not. Yeah, but that that I think isn't as important that we shoot for that.

Well, and it's it's mean that that word innovation. It's funny that word has been, you know, innovate is the online learning consortium conference that that

Will be headed to in in April, Ohio State where it came from, had a conference or has a conference, also called innovate. I think it was I think they

THINK THE BUCKEYES will want to claim that their conference called innovate first and it what's fair, is it

At for online and kind of emerged. I think maybe with a blended conference will see it done and they named it innovate, but it makes sense.

But that words around. And as you for anyone who doesn't spend much time around the Phoenix metro area.

The ASU buses and shuttles very prominently will display wraps. That's a issues and number one ranked university in the country for innovation and have been for a few years and and to be fair ASU does strike me as a fairly innovative fun place. I really, really enjoyed being there.

But that word is kind of everywhere, to the point where

You know, it was at oil see a few years ago rollin mo did a series of exhibitions on kind of what innovation is and means and how do we understand as a term and did some really interesting writing and Chris Kelly arts done the same.

But you know, it's innovation is is something that's so just by its definition is something that's so hard to be against that you can you can wield it and a lot of different interesting ways. But I think

I think one of the things that's come around again kind of at this conference has been

folks coming in to understand not just sell big ideas or just share a lot of hype about kind of different technologies or teaching practices.

But trying to be thoughtful as well around like okay well what does that mean, and who does that mean that for and you know the institutions that that folks come from or everything from of big prestigious could either research universities or Ivy League schools to

Folks who are coming in from all online schools and universities and community colleges. And so there's an interesting mix of ideas and and you know

A lot of times we talk about good design you know constraint.

You know, creates the opportunity set for design and good design. And so a lot of times folks who might think they're resource constrained have come up with innovation that really

Big, big schools or places where they have more resources can learn from and leverage because it's been tested and proven in context where

Those constraints force people to kind of be creative in ways that other people just had a blind spot for so necessity is the mother of marriage. Yeah.

But I think that's you hit on it. I mean that's that's the problem. I don't think many people are willing to take chances you know that a lot of places.

It was in my experience, a lot of places. Inside Higher Education and out yeah they they want the benefits of the innovation, without any the risks. Yeah, yeah, they like, oh yeah, we want to change everything we want everything to be better to what are you willing to change.

Yeah. Nothing. No, that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. Yeah, I mean that's that's a piece that you know it's hard. I mean, just on its face, it's thinking about doing anything different learning juggling you're learning to juggle a Rubik's Cube, a

long division. It's hard to get things right the first time. Anything that above rudimentary cognitive skill right like that.

Or even physical skills so much less changing systems and structures. And I think that's, that's something that has been it's been on my mind a lot as we go work.

Particularly in public institutions that have real accountability. So you're if you're a k 12 school your school's report card like

That determines funding that comes in or a teacher's evaluation performance evaluation in some to some extent determines the paycheck that they receive and so

Those are real consequences and so that creates real

Kind of nuanced context for how not just risk averse. People are willingness to engage in risk but but the types and and so balancing that idea of like risk and innovation together failure tolerance for failure or

The refrain that a lot of design thinkers will share is kind of reframing failure as learning so

The idea isn't that we're going to try and fail. And then we're done. How do we spin that up again in create a virtuous cycle of iterating our way forward through what you might otherwise consider failure and like

As I say that right there's a sensor, like, Boy, that sounds really sweet would love to get a lot of people to believe that but i think that's

You know, that's where it comes in with parts of what kind of let's say leadership or collective

Power to say no, we're going to stand to believe that, and that's going to allow us to act in these different waves and we're seeing

Pockets that trying to promote that. But I do see that in more in the dialogue, let's say in the innovate conference space with colleagues, then

Maybe I see elsewhere and maybe conferences are good for that. Right, let's get together as a as a test. But yeah, I mean they're, they're kind of designed to be that I mean that it's in. It's on the 10 Yeah, give us your unfinished work and get feedback. Yeah.

But you know the Fillmore feel better. Right. Yeah. And that's, I tell my students that all the time. I'm like, look, I, I want you to struggle.

And I want you to see where you where your missteps where you know you should be working. This should be hard. It's, it's not

An easy thing to swallow. You really gonna chew you learn much more if you kind of stumble. But yeah, it's an interesting idea. And it's interesting to think about given an example I am in a doctoral program now and I have a cohort that's become you know really

A social group and, you know, a scholarly kind of group of colleagues that I really

Enjoy. And in some ways depend on, but a lot of our, you know, kind of shared discourse across like a Facebook group right where we're talking about assignments. And when's this do and what's your understanding of this and would you think of this reading and

And just sharing life, life means, hey, I need this or I posted out there when we, when we first started. Hey,

My partner was looking for looking for a job. Hey, do you all have any leads, etc.

But, um,

You know, one of the things it's funny, as I think the median age of the group is probably, probably near 40 or around there and we're still very much as a group.

Spent a lot of time talking about grades and talking about how does the instructor want this. And how's this done.

And there are times where I find myself wanting to push back with a group of, like, that's the wrong thing to focus on where it's about the learning and who cares and no one's gonna ever asked for your

It's such a doctoral transcript. But it's this stuff. Is it your saturated with her from the time I mean I was telling

My partner yet. Yes, literally yesterday with drive to the park. I can remember kind of discrete moments and like sixth grade was the first time I can remember like feeling

Pressure to get some particular kind of grade and the, the stress that that caused in my life. Like, literally.

I can remember being a sixth grader crying about whether or not I was going to get a, b, and what that meant, but I certainly did not have parents who were, you know, I don't think they were going to the world wasn't going to end. If I got to be, but I just remember

And so much of my everything since then has been kind of focused on thinking about what, how could you organize. How could you design schools or educational experiences in a way

That people never felt that kind of like almost like a kind of psychological violence that that and maybe some of its good right like learnings unpredictable and sometimes you you learn things you don't want to learn or, you know,

But I didn't intend to yeah was certainly learned things you never intended to learn or things that you can't unlearn

But that sort of experience, like, you must like no

Kid should have that right. So I'm starting with the end of this normally they maybe they're people out there think kids should have that

And we intentionally want them to have that experience. Yeah, but I remember the ways in which

You know, we talked, we touched on this a little bit like cheating problems and things like that are often are probably more structural than than they are a normative judgment on someone's character and that the context and the stress you put people underneath them to do things so

Our as our overlord checking in on

Amazon delivery.

They saw the echo kind of saw, you're not going to light up light up and read and I thought maybe I'd gotten to maybe it's starting to get to, to Marxist I muted it and I totally turn down the volume. I don't know. It just over a road my commands. It's becoming sentient.

With the with the impending and inevitable robot uprising, I think.

I always loved you, ECHO.